Penny Stock

Welcome to Pickwick. I have neighbors who have huge 12-piece sterling silver kiddush fountains (one kid) and every other huge, fancy silver thing you can imagine, but is on WIC. The husbands are in kollel, the wives are at home with kids or in school, so they don't "make enough money." I agree with you 100%.

As Aishel says, this situation is all too commonplace, and it's not just in Baltimore. I know a number people who have much nicer stuff than you'd expect people who have no income to have, and many are on WIC. Just remember, that some of us have enough pride not to rely on the government, while to others pride is a foreign concept. I'd much rather have to work hard to make money and not rely on handouts than to be brought up in such a way that I expect a certain lifestyle, yet don't mind being on WIC. We are the fortunate ones.

The last time I was on line behind someone using WIC I was at the beach with my parents, and my dad was waiting in the car, and the lady in front of me (who looked like she could definitely use WIC), rang up a bunch of things, used vouchers, and then got formula for her baby (who looked like she could definitely use a bath), which took forever, so my dad was all mad at me because I took so long. I am so tired I forgot the exact point of this story. Oh, maybe I shouldn't write comments so late at night I can't discern right from write? Maybe it was give your baby a bath before you go to the grocery store.

it's unfortunate. I think it's a chilul Hashem. I wonder if these people would try to use wic certificates in Giant or Shoppers?

Real things that have been said to me (in Pickwick)..

When talking about the cost of children/childcare/formula, etc. "Or, you just don't work, and you get WIC." OHH. Why didn't I think of that? Um, perhaps maybe because if I didn't work we couldn't afford rent, gas, phone, life insurance, diapers, etc. (It should be noted that also that I also nursed my child for almost a year. Part of it was because I wanted to but the other part was because I just couldn't spend an extra $100 a month on formula)

"Why don't you just get the free health insurance?" Hmm.. that wasn't on the plan when I signed up for insurance at work.

What annoys also annoys me is that it's my tax money that's supporting all of this.

You all need to get out of Pickwick and come live near us! Oh wait, you can't do that because you WORK so you can't afford a house (that is an oxymoron if I ever heard one, but you know what I mean!).

(Did that sound bitter?)

Ma- I am dissapointed, when I saw that you commented I had hoped you would marvel at the responsible nature of your daughter!

Another great quote I heard from friends, not from Pickwick but a similar place: A young woman with loaded parents and in laws bought a house and said to another young mother: "Don't you want a house?" Well, duh. Not all of us have parents and in laws who buy us everything we want. This is turning into a great thread of bitterness.

As Lanie always says, the way for all of us to be rich, it seems, is to quit our jobs and stay home!

I had a conversation recently with someone who said she just "can't" work full time because she wouldn't leave her kids all day and she was asking me "how do you do it?" because I work full time and have two babies - what the heck I do it because I HAVE TO! I don't have my in-laws paying my rent, phone, car and the government paying for my health insurance and food!

It's a good thing I wasn't with you guys at 7Mile.

Oh and Jewboy,
I want to live in a 2 bedroom apartment with roaches for the rest of my life!

You know, there are much worse abuses of government $$$ than some frum people who use WIC. I am sure that on paper they qualify and I wish I had qualified when I got married and had our first kid but we both worked (didn't get paid too well) so we struggled. Let me hear a rant about the illegal immigrants who are saping the government for money every day. Or the African American family that gets WIC and trades it for drugs. Frum people using WIC legally is not immoral it is fair.

annoyed at you,

Just because something is "fair" and "legal" doesn't make it right.

"annoyed"- While what you are saying about illegal immigrants may be true it still doesn't discount the fact that: a) these people are taking from the government when they OBVIOUSLY do not need it and b)it is quite irritating for "us" the bystanders to watch them do this.

Hi Peninah,
Sorry that I will not reveal my true identity here, but I'm sure you'll understand why. I know a lot of you who posted here and you know me, too :).
My husband was learning in kollel FT for the first few years we were married. We had two little kids. I worked PT because I did not want to leave my kids with these daycare factories for 9 hours a day. I made very decent money and it was all reported - nothing under the table. The income levels for WIC are very high. Why should I not take advantage of it if I rightfully qualify?
Yes, I may have some nice silver and engagement ring and not driving a car from the 70's, but all those were gifts. Could we afford them? No way! Should we pawn all those gifts so that we no longer need to be on WIC? We are very careful with our spending. I can't remember the last time I bought myself a new shirt, skirt, suit, etc. Yes, I use WIC and my kids are on Medical Assistance. Why not? Why is it a chillul Hashem if I really qualify? I've seen ads on the MTA busses recently for WIC- they're obviously not short on their funds.
My neighbor is in school to be a PA and her husband just started law school. They are on WIC, medical assistance, energy assistance, and food stamps. Do they "qualify" in your standards anymore than I do?
Also, in your initial example, Peninah, you said that the woman at Seven Mile had parents who were loaded. Is it still their responsibility to "support" their kids? I'm not of that philosohpy. If you're not living in your parents' house, then you gotta figure out how to make it on your own. There is a resource out there to help you make it- the government- why not take advantage of it?

Ok, blast away!

First off, I have no problem with the illegal immigrants. Our country would not function were it not for these people. I know this sounds offensive, but we need people who will cut grass for less than minimum wage. If we don't have them, all of us are going to spend a lot more for things like this.

Now, while I agree that using WIC is despicable, I think the biggest issue with it is that it makes Jews look bad. It should be a point of pride to go out and work and earn money for your family, and one should be embarrassed to take handouts. I'm talking on a religious level and on a practical level (I could quote you pasukim, but I wont, cuz they don't really prove anything).

But ultimately, if one wants to debase oneself by using WIC when they don't need to, that's there decision, and it doesn't really affect me. What does affect me, and I consider to be even more egregious and heinous is when folks make decisions that affect me. So, when some mother says, "I'm not going to get a job, since all the money I earn would just go towards tuition, so I'll just take a tuition break...," as far as I am concerned, those people are going to burn in the pits of hell like a tire doused in gasoline.

I used to get really upset about these things, but then I stopped talking to people, and it's gotten much, much better.

"Me"- (if I really know you,)*Hi* (waves hands). I actually think you and I don't really disagree that much on this. The point of my blog post was not to say that people who use WIC are "evil"- quite on the contrary. If you wanted to use WIC and qualified- great. You went out and worked and (hopefully) did your part to support you and your husband (can I rightfully assume your parents did not give you a huge check every month that you used on extravagant items?).

As far as your example about the girl. My point in saying that the girl's parents were loaded was not to say that I think they should be supporting her- more of the fact that I think they ARE supporting her. If a couple's parents want to support them, fine- especially if they are both in school and are working towards a goal. But when someone's parents are supporting them enough that they can live extravagantly (i.e., new cars, nice shaitels, expensive accessories, luxury food items) yet these people use WIC and take tuition reduction, that is appauling to me. And yes, it DOES affect me (especially in the tuition department). I don't know if I get more upset at the parents in this case or at the kids they are supporting who aren't learning what it means to be responsible adults and use their money wisely and responsibly.

I offer caveats often and I will do it now, if I am being unclear, please ask me to clarify and I would be happy to do so.

Just want to note how "Annoyed" was kind enough to use the term African American while making a racial stereotype. Way to go with the policial correctness. Just becauae something is legal doesn't make it right. People have forgotten the fifth chelek of Shulchan Aruch. I have much more to say about this, I may have to make my own post.

I was under the impression there were only four chelakim of the Shulchan Aruch...

ME,
I personally was not bashing WIC itself, if people who need it & qualify for it then there is no reason why they shouldn't use it, as you said it's there for help. My husband and I both work but could still benefit from WIC, the little we make is too much to qualify.

I was agreeing to the fact that someone with a designer purse and a house and brand new everything who doesn't work at all bc everything is handed to them - should not be taking money from WIC(that our taxes pay for) just because they qualify. Obviously, I feel the same about anybody who abuses the system, illegal immigrants, Jews or whoever.

Jewboy just finished his last final and is very into this discussion. Greg has voiced what I have seen as perhaps the main point here-pride. We've created a frum society where young couples have no problem with taking handouts and that is a serious problem. Cal me old school, but I'm not into that. Friends in yeshiva told me about WIC and I said, "Yeah, but I don't want to take handouts unless I was absolutely forced to." Foreign concept. What a tragedy.

Furthermore, Peninah has already addressed Me's points, but I'd like to reiterate that if a couple is not making any income and lives a high standard of living then it is often the case that their wealthy parents are supporting them. If that is the case, the parents should pay for the stuff they use WIC for and leave WIC to those who really ned it. Of course, this whole notion of parents supporting their kids totally for years is obscene, but that's frum life nowadays. Ain't it great?

Jewboy- Peninah likes how you use the third person. Keep it up.

I have to disagree. I don't think you can compare WIC and tuition reduction. Our schools do not have any money, and when one takes a tuition break it directly effects the ones paying full tuition. The person using WIC does not directly affect anyone on this list. Further, if their parents are "loaded" they are paying very high taxes - taxes for which we in the frum community get very little benefit in general because we do not use the public school system. So why not take advantage of WIC if they qualify because they do not have any earned income? Those are the rules and they are just using them to their advantage. For those of you outraged by this, do you feel the same way about infants and toddlers. Many frum people who are making money use infants and toddlers for free speech, OT, and PT services. Technically many of these people could be paying privately for these services. Is this also outrageous? True infants and toddlers is not income based but if the theory above is followed through on they are "taking services" away from those less fortunate as the infants and toddlers has limited funds. Should they have “more pride” than to use these services?

I grew up in a town where it was estimated that a 1/4 of the students or more were on some sort of government assistance (food stamps, reduced price lunch, etc), but I honestly cannot tell you who was on assistance or not. Let's just say, nobody talked about it. Let's just say it strikes me as odd how open some of my friends are about their government assistance. Not only do people talk about it openly, but I was even told by a Rebbitzen to sign up after making note of the high price of diapers. (We don't qualify, and until I lived in a sizable frum community, I'd never heard of WIC and had to google it to find out what it was).

Peninah's story reminds me of my mother's rant long ago when she was standing behind somebody in line who was paying for their groceries using food stamps, but was buying non-approved items (strawberries that were not on sale) using cash. My mother found it appauling. If this is what was appauling, imagine standing behind a frum WIC receipient who is dressed to the nines and pushing a designer stroller. Ugh!

The really sad thing is that government assistance has become a lifestyle choice, rather than a safety net to fall back on in dire need. As my girlfriend who taught in a Bais Yaakov said, engagement is follow up by a $50,000 plus wedding and a trip to Tomchei Shabbos and the offices for government assistance.

Thanks for your logical and pleasant replies.
I agree with your point Peninah about parents supporting. If you really have the full picture, and that is the case, then they are "abusing" the WIC privileges. But I just want to point out, that there are some of us out there who may look like we have some luxuries (no we don't get checks from our parents, though we did get a little help from my inlaw's in our first year of marriage), in truth we don't have money for the basics.

To Jewboy and Greg, I do feel embarassed using WIC (especially at Shoppers), but if it enables me to save up some money to be used for better purposes (ie. the tuition that is coming down the line) I'll keep my pride to myself and use it.

"disagree"- Infants and Toddlers is a completely different thing. According to IDEA (the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act) Part C- all children ages 0-3 (infants and toddlers) who qualify for services are entitled to free supports and services for children who are born with any special needs. first of all, it is in the governments best interest to provide these services. SEcond of all, there are strict guidelines for who is eligible to receive Part C benefits (based on disability and diagnosis)- so by that token any child who is receiving these services is a child who would benefit from them and by definition is not taking away services from a more "needy" child.

As far as the well to do parents paying higher taxes. Are you saying that they are in fact contributing to the WIC their children are taking? Just curious.

I have to agree with Peninah. I really don't think you can compare the two programs, it's comparing apples and oranges. The bottom line is that one is need based on income and one isn't. If the people in charge of this program decided to make it available to all people of all income levels for no money, it's equal opportunity for everyone. It's addressing a different need, and that's the need of making sure that all kids develop properly in those areas, regardless of income level. I don't have a problem with people making use of a program that was designed for that purpose.

SephardiLady- That wedding/tomchei shabbos thing really nauseates me. As for everything else you said- as always your pragmatic approach to the topic makes sense and I agree.

Me- Don't be embarrassed to use it if you need it (and as you discussed before you qualify rightfully). Chas V'shalom should someone who could use the assistance that WIC offers not use it because they are embarrassed- I just think that some people should think twice about openly using it especially considering the chilul Hashem factor. Just my opinion.

Also, I don't want you to think that I am opposed to parents helping their kids out. Parents are entitled to help their chlildren out financially, emotionally, and in any other way they see fit. I will happily admit that my parents and my in-laws have both been very generous at different times in our marriage. My issue is when the support becomes about luxuries and not necessities and when the necessities fall on other members of the community or when they are abused (in the case of the original girl in question).

That wedding/tomchei shabbos thing really nauseates me.

It makes me angry too. It is not "just" the government shelling out extra money for people that can't differentiate between luxury and necessity. The community shells out funds too. This is probably why so many people spend so much energy arguing over what tuition certain families should be paying when their parents are shelling out for this, that, and the other things, and the tuition committee hears "poverty."

You said it best: "My issue is when the support becomes about luxuries and not necessities and when the necessities fall on other members of the community or when they are abused."

For the commentator saying you can't compare WIC and tuition, I'm certainly not going to try. But the mentality that one should live on tzedakah, is not endorsed by rishonim or achronim. But, it seems to be the mentality of our generation. As someone once told me, "don't worry about tuition, that's what scholarships are for." G-d knows, even families that earn high incomes often need scholarships because tuition is so out of control. But, with that attitude, we will be lucky to have schools to send our children to in the next 10 years.

I have nothing to add to this conversation, but all of the cool kids are doing it, so I had to get my name involved too.

Well said, SL.

Alan- All the cool kids? What alternate universe are you living in?

I want to approach this from a different angle. As a tax preparer I work for my clients to find loopholes to minimize their taxes. I don't approach a tax return saying that since my clients make $350,000 they should not be getting a break, yet I have clients who have lower tax rates then I do, is that fair? it doesn't matter as long as it is legitimate. I think the real wrath should be directed at the Federal Government who remove the incentive to work by offering all these free programs.

I know this is a crazy concept - and I know I'm not from Baltimore so maybe I'm just stupid - But if one income isn't enough to make ends meet, maybe your husband should stop learning in kollel and get a job?

Look I am not looking to starta whole fight about should eople learn in kollel or not, but in the case where your family is forced to live in a state of welfare, doesn't it make sense for Mr. Me to get a job?

What am i missing here?

Elster- You are preaching to the choir here. I am just trying to be as non-judgemental as possible since I used up my share of judgementalness by writing the original post :)

Nircgrad: I think this brings us back to the "fair versus right" argument.

Elster, I hear your point. And I agree. If a family is not making ends meet, it's not fair for anyone involved (the wife, the family, the govt) if the husband doesn't contribute his share. B"H we do make ends meet. Without the help from WIC, we wouldn't be living on the street eating stale bread. WIC just helps us out, we don't RELY on it. Anyone who is relying on WIC is in a really sorry state. You can't get enough nutrition for your whole family from WIC alone. How much does WIC save us already?!? $60 a month? It's a nice $60 for us to have around, as I said, we penny-pinch everywhere we can. But those $60 aren't going to make a difference to a family who can't pay their $900 rent because the husband doesn't have a job.
p.s. We know that we can't "survive" on my pay-check alone for much longer, so my husband is preparing himself to enter the "work-force" within the next few months.

However, Me, I still have to ask the question that if one is compelled to go on WIC to save money, perhaps they shouldn't be in kollel at all? Getting a job to support your family to the fullest extent possible is better than learning and having to go on WIC, in my opinion.

Anon, isn't everyone compelled to save money?
Anon: "[A}Getting a job to support your family to the fullest extent possible is better than [B} learning and having to go on WIC"
As I said, A and B are not our two options. We could be FT kollelers without HAVING to go on WIC. Kollel life isn't FORCING us to be on WIC. We chose to lead a kollel life. One of the "perks" is that we make it into the WIC income levels. So we'll take that perk. It's not that we want to lead this lifestyle and it's therefore necessary for us to use WIC.

Well, in that case, if as you say kollel life isn't forcing you to be on WIC, isn't it possible that you shouldn't go on WIC unless it's absolutely necessary? It doesn't feel wrong to use government programs when you don't really need them?

which goes back to the question, of taking WIC and other government programs just because they are available?
Would anyone here from Baltimore not take CHAI loans just because we can make the mortgage payments or afford the down payment without the assistance?

NircGrad- if you want to take a chai loan don't you have to live in specific neighborhoods? Not the same thing.

I don't know about down there in bawlmore (well, i do) but here in NY, the st insurance isn't for people who have no money- it's for people with a little money, who if they were forced to pay 1000 a month for health insurance, would be poor.

i want to echo "me's" sentiment. obviously the situation u saw in 7 mile was extreme, but just b/c someone has "stuff"- silver from their wedding, etc. doesn't mean that right now they have money. i totally agree with her- should people pawn off their assets? and if the government didn't mean WIC for you, then you shouldn't qualify! (i understand the person you saw had no reportable income).

i will say that i believe that this notion of WIC in baltimore was started by NY ers. In NY it isn't looked upon (well maybe it is some places)as being the worst thing in the world. The percentage of frum people on WIC from the overall WIC popualtion is minimal. (otoh, do you wanna be associated with them?) WIC in baltimore is something unheard of, until NY ers overtook the place. tell me that i am wrong.

Penny,

CHAI loans are limited to certain neighborhoods, but the boundaries for some of the loans are broad as are the income limits.
The point I am making is that for some reason taking WIC is demonized because of its association with the Kollel lifestyle. If the husband was in Grad school and the wife chose to take WIC rather then work less commenters here would protest, because the problem here isn't WIC it's Kollel.

Regardless (or irregardless- I really never know what to use when) of whether this conversation has turned into an anti WIC or anti Kollel conversation, let me just state for the records my intention in this blogpost.

It was not to rant against WIC.

It was not to rant against Kollel.

It was mostly to rant against people living certain lifestyles (and showing them off) and then having the audacity to take a government supported check (for people without money) just because "they can".

OK- now back to your regularly scheduled comments.

FYI, I will probably never really post my feelings on Kollel vs. non-kollel (even though I have strong and complex thoughts on the issue)mostly because I don't want this blog (which I take pride in being completely inane and not serious topic driven) to become too serious. The 40+ comments on this post have already made me regret entering the world of grown up blogging topics.

Your post was clearly not Anti-Kollel and I really take no issue with your comments other then the fact that inherent in most people is the desire, with certain parameters to take advantage of opportunities afforded them.
I take issue with some of the comments

WIC is a government sponsored benefit. Most people pay tons of taxes and WIC is one of those benefits. Why shouldn't people take advantage of it? I know that was not the point of this blog - but it is were the comments have gone. Personally I am thrilled if some part of my tax dollars are going to support people learning in kollel? Maybe its a heter to say part of our taxes count as Massir (sp?) money. Would it make people feel better to know that their taxes dollars were only supporting members of other groups - who most likely could also go out and get jobs instead of going on WIC. Sorry again - I know this was not the intent of the blog I just could not help myself.

I don't think this has much to do with kollel. I happen to know that the person Penny observed that started this whole thing is not a kollel wife. The issue is taking government benefits that are designed for needy people if one doesn't truly need them. It's my belief that if one is in kollel and needs to take government aid to get by, he should leave kollel and get a job. I am not agianst kollel inherently. Similarly, if both spouses are in grad school but are clearly being supported by their rich parents and in laws, perhaps the parents should shell out for the stuff they use WIC for also. If a couple does all it can to support themselves and needs WIC, fine. I know several people like that. The problem is not doing whatever it takes to maximize your income and then going on WIC.

Here Here, Jewboy.

Jumping into the fray, I think we have to remember that NOTHING is free. So what if the "government" lets you take WIC. Who is going to have to live with the results of a broken economy because of the ballooning national or state debt - you will. So who are you pulling a fast one on? You or your kids.

my tax dollars are being flushed down the toilet to pay for something that people think has no ramifications. But you can't get something for nothing, ever. Maybe we should advocate for tougher restrictions and controls on WIC money. every dollar someone who doesn't need it takes now, it is costing them a lot more down the line in their job potential and quality of life.